catapult magazine

I am crying out to anyone on this board that would listen. My faith doesn’t seem to make sense anymore, and I am constantly finding myself hoping for things outside mainstream evangelical thought which leads to constant guilt.

I can’t seem to rest in the grace of God since on one hand preachers say it’s all about grace, and in the next breath you listen to John Piper talk about how we must suffer for Christ. Then I realize I’ve never even suffered a hang nail for Christ and that I must not be "saved."

hi, tbone. welcome to the discussion board—and thank you for trusting this space with such a significant struggle.

my husband and I just spent time with a friend today who’s in seminary. ironically (or perhaps not), she said that seminary is making her question everything she thought she believed, which makes me think of something Frederick Buechner wrote: faith without doubt is fragile and irrelevant. it sounds like you’re in an uncomfortable place, but I’m pretty sure you’re in good company.

I’d be interested in knowing more about your story—how did you arrive where you are? what’s prompting your current questions? what is the definition of mainstream evangelical thought for you? are you a reader? as in, would you welcom book suggestions?

I hope you will find good community on this board, even with its share of "characters".

Hi Kirstin, and thank you so much for responding. I’ve never heard anyone say something like "faith without doubt is fragile." Wow. I’ve thought it myself, but never been told it.

I read so please hit me with book suggestions. Someone told me to read [i:1aa8c210df]Blue Like Jazz[/i:1aa8c210df], but I know nothing about Don Miller.

I come from a Plymouth brethren (Darby) background. An issue of the church I attended was whether a piano would be used in worship. One leading elder got up and told the congregation that he would rather die than have a piano in worship. I?ve been to and graduated from a prominent reformed seminary. Now, I find myself flirting with churches that I once considered ?liberal.?

A main struggle I have is fitting in with mainstream evangelicalism. I tend to think annihilation is probable for unbelievers. Most of all, I see myself fitting into the culture whereas the church seems to want to scrap culture and start something totally different. This leads to depression, because I?m thinking that my ?love of culture? is just an excuse to hang on to sin.

Another problem I have is that I doubt the whole thing sometimes. Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit seem so quiet and aloof at times. It makes me just want to give up. I’ve never been able to talk with anyone about this in mainstream evangelicalism—because they don’t seem to allow questions. Then I wonder how God’s people could be so closed off.

hi again, tbone. thanks for elaborating a bit on your thoughts and context. that’s helpful.

the Buechner quote comes from an essay called "Faith" in the book [i:95bcce40d8]Longing for Home[/i:95bcce40d8]. it’s a very short essay, if you’re near a bookstore and just want to read that piece. also, your comments about the quietness of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit make me think of a keynote address we published a while back on [i:95bcce40d8]catapult[/i:95bcce40d8] by Lauren Winner on the hiddenness of God. here’s a quote from that address:

The book of Esther, I think, asks us to sit in the space where God is hidden. I told you earlier that I have been spending a lot of time with Esther and now I will tell you why I have been spending a lot of time with Esther. I have come to a place in my life where God seems hidden. It’s not exactly a place of doubt. It’s not exactly a spiritual dry spell. It’s a place of God’s removal, somehow. He doesn’t seem to be right next to me. He doesn’t seem to be speaking to me very loudly… This is not a place that the church likes to spend much time, this hiddenness of God. I think it scares us to death. I think we are scared that if we allow people to name and experience god’s mysterious hiddenness, they will somehow fall away from the faith or do something they shouldn’t do. And yet the presence of the book of Esther in our sacred, sacred, sacred, holy scriptures tells us that the opposite is true. It tells us that part of God’s dazzling dark mystery is his sometimes hiddenness and if we deny his hiddenness, we deny part of his mystery. Of course, God’s hiddenness is not the final word. He may be hidden, but he is still active.

I think you would also resonate with her elaboration of the theme of exile, of feeling like a foreigner in the place where you are, as it sounds like you’re in a community of believers that is not having the same struggles you are. but, like I said earlier, I think you’re in good company in exile. the current issue of [i:95bcce40d8]catapult[/i:95bcce40d8] might also reveal some kindred spirits who discuss their journey to understand God’s purposes for alcohol. and [i:95bcce40d8]Blue Like Jazz[/i:95bcce40d8] would be a good book for you to read. I’ve heard many people say it shook them up—in a good way—if that’s something you’re looking for.

I’m not sure how you found this discussion board or what prompted you to post, but Christ’s redemption of ALL of culture is what this project is all about. redemption is not just limited to the Church or "Christian" culture or "sacred" culture, because life and death cut right through the middle of everything. if we Christians think we can cluster together and be perfectly safe, we are living into a myth, because the influence of darkness is right within our own beings. likewise, the light of God can be revealed in very surprising places, not just within the boundaries we assign. to believe that we can separate ourselves from culture is misguided. if "culture" is the way we make sense of being humans created by God to live in this world, then "culture is not optional." we are all participants in culture, whether we acknowledge it or not—and all of culture is fallen and all of culture is being redeemed, so we do well to be prayerful and intentional in all things. it’s the constant tension between being in the world, not of the world and it’s different from both fitting into culture and scrapping it.

it sounds like you’re struggling with the limitations of a fear-driven community. throughout scripture, particularly throughout the stories of Advent, we hear over and over again from God or from agents of God, "Do not be afraid." so often we act as though we don’t really believe that the victory of God revealed in Jesus Christ was sufficient. we act as though if we’re not careful enough or Christian enough, evil will gain a foothold to win. but the definitive triumph of life over death is revealed in the resurrection and we have only to accept God’s gracious invitation to participate in the ongoing revelation of Kingdom reality. so why should we have to be afraid of any question? questions don’t change the ultimate reality of God.

sorry for the theological barrage, but I can’t help but start by elaborating on some of the foundational reasons *cino exists. and Ransom Fellowship for that matter—I guess I don’t know which door you’ve entered to get here, as this is a shared board.

at the risk of cross-pollinating my work with two different organizations, I would like to recommend an event to you where you might find community with people asking similar questions rooted in the sphere of popular music: the Festival of Faith & Music in March.

Thank you for the encouragement and for providing a safe place for questions. You are an oasis. I will check into the festival.

tbone, you may also want to try the book Growing Up Fundamentalist: Journeys in Legalism and Grace by Sephan Ulstein.

http://www.amazon.com/Growing-Up-Fundamentalist-Journeys-Legalism/dp/0830816186

It is a great book which consists of "exit interviews" of sorts with people who grew up in fundamentalist contexts and either moved on to different churches, stayed on but with new understanding, or gave up on their faith.

hi, tbone. I thought of you this weekend when I read this passage in Madeleine L’Engle’s [i:42a48c34a3]Walking on Water: Reflections on Faith & Art[/i:42a48c34a3]:

To be truly Christian means to see Christ everywhere, to know him as all in all.

I don’t mean to water down my Christianity into a vague kind of universalism, with Buddha and Mohammed all being more or less equal to Jesus—not at all! But neither do I want to tell God (or my friends) where he can and cannot be seen! We human beings far too often tend to codify God, to feel that we know where he is and is not, and this arrogance leads to such things as the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem witch burnings, and has the result of further fragmenting an already broken Christendom.

We live by revelation, as Christians, as artists, which means that we must be careful never to get set into rigid molds. The minute we begin to think we know all the answers, we forget the questions, and we become smug like the Pharisee who listed all his considerable virtues, and thanked God that he was not like other men.

Unamuno might be describing the artist as well as the Christian when he writes, "Those who believe they believe in God, but without passion in the heart, without anguish of mind, without uncertainty, without doubt, and even at times without despair, believe only in the idea of God, and not in God himself."

which makes me wonder if by naming and entering into your doubt (your "anguish of mind") rather than ignoring it for the sake of the "idea of God" you’ve been handed, you are making an effort to enter into the suffering of Christ: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" of course, doubt can become an idol that we coddle as our dearest treasure and that can have all kinds of destructive effects, but we learn so much about ourselves and about God by stepping into that difficult place of tension between faith and doubt and that makes the prayerful risk worthwhile.

I’m so thankful for these posts and encouragement that I cannot express it deeply enough.

Can you help me with one more thing? [I will read the book dassler]

Recently I’ve been attending an ELCA church. In the past I would not have considered a denomination like this because it’s teachings were to "liberal" and I did not consider them biblical enough. The deal is though is that they allow me to struggle with God, and deal with the desperation going on in my soul. My old church didn’t do that. Even though they were considered more biblical it was discouraged to struggle with God.

I guess I’m just looking for encouragement in knowing that my attraction to what are considered more "liberal" churches is okay and that my journey as a true Christian can be sustained there.

hi, tbone. I’m glad to hear that the conversation here has been useful and encouraging for you.

it’s funny that you mention an ELCA church—my husband and I are currently members of an ELCA church. one of the things we appreciate about our congregation specifically (which may or may not be representative of the whole denomination) is that because there’s not pressure to conform to standard conservative evangelical views, there are people who consider it their church home with a WIDE range of religious and political views. I love the fact that I can worship and commune with the person who is a card-carrying member of the NRA as well as the person who believes that the church should sanction homosexual marriage (stereotypical political views, but I think you know what I mean). the body of Christ is truly diverse and ultimately called by Christ himself to love God, to love one another and to love others.

though the Church should value unity, it’s also abundantly clear throughout history that we will read the same texts and come to very different conclusions. unity runs deeper than particular views and is modeled in the Holy Trinity—three distinct and different parts but also complete unity as One.

you should be aware that so-called liberal communities can be just as legalistic about their views as conservative churches, but if you’re in a congregation that will hold you in love and care and confidence while you grow more in God, that sounds like a good place to be, whether it’s ELCA or Wisconsin synod. don’t be afraid. seek God. be guided by the Spirit—that exasperating presence that refuses to stay put where we believe it should be.

i came across this and thought it was appropriate to the thread:

I have of late received e-mails from some who are facing severe doubts about their life and about the Christian faith, and I have no capacity here to dissolve doubts by cooking them dry on some apologetic stove ? by and large I don?t think doubts are dissolved so much as they are, by faith, put on our shoulders to be carried along with us…
Read the rest of it here

Laryn thank you for the post. I find it really interesting that as I struggle through this faith crisis the people who really allow me to grapple are all associated with some form of the emerging movement/conversation. If they’re not officially, then loosely associated, like Don Miller.