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Kingdom of Heaven

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geoff3
Apr 25 2005
11:12 am

The Kingdom of Heaven is likened unto a great army, by Ridley Scott. Is it out in North American cinemas yet?

I wondered if anyone in Cinoland has seen this epic and what they think of it. ekklesia.co.uk have reported it as follows:

Christian conservatives in America are marshalling their forces against Sir Ridley Scott?s forthcoming crusader epic, The Kingdom of Heaven, claiming the film is insulting and unfair.

Geoff

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Jason Panella
Apr 25 2005
12:56 pm

I’ve also heard that many Muslims are saynig the same thing. Maybe it’ll just stink?

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geoff3
Apr 25 2005
03:14 pm

Hi Jason,

Apparently it was because the Christians were posed as sly, weaselly cowards and Saladin as an honourable warrior! What I’ve seen of it visually, the cinematography looks fantastic. Perhaps the difference between the form of the thing and its content?

Geoff

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vanlee
Apr 25 2005
09:00 pm

I hope to see this movie sometime. Hope to get a historian’s critique of its accuracy (or lack thereof).

The scary thing in our culture….
it seems the visual image is the reality…the truth for some in the audience.
No matter what the scholars might say to the contrary…

They look no further.

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geoff3
Apr 26 2005
04:04 am

Just think what could be done if Christians latched on to this idea of image and truth!

Geoff

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grant
Apr 26 2005
10:43 am

Yes.

Oliver Stone has some interesting things to say about film’s ability to communicate true history, apparently. dave schaap is more versed on Stone’s perspective than I so maybe I’ll give him an opportunity to continue my thought…

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vanlee
Apr 26 2005
10:55 am

I saw 100 teens mesmerized…by The Passion movie last year (the original, more violent version). we (the youth coaches) had assured the kids they could leave the theater if it was too much. I think all but one stayed.

mention this movie as I think it came quite close to image=truth. [/b:e75a871dff] The man (Gibson) did his research…and he had the techmical ** artistic skills to put his message over too. It won’t work for everyone, but it has worked for many…

But while the violence did not overwhelm the 100 teens, (like it overwhelmed some of the older viewers) the teens got the point. In their early 22nd century language of violence…

Jesus suffered incredible torture. Many cried softly during the movie…but in the discussion later, they got it. Jesus suffered & died for us … that phrase is no longer just the well sanitized gentle artwork of their younger childhood (sunday take home papers, etc.) but the blood & guts of a movie which approached the gore of the actual reality.

The Passion does not work for everyone.

Would not have worked in the 1950’s bible movie era (what movie does work in all times?) but it worked for most of the teens who cannot play a videogame or watch a movie TV show where someone’s guts gets kicked out without…remembering that the same essentially happened to Jesus…

Some movies last because they do come close to the image=truth ideal…I suspect the Passion will be one of them.

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geoff3
May 12 2005
11:07 am

Well, the Bible Society in the UK, have just put together something called Kaleidoscope, which has all sorts of events happening over Bristol, like cinema and political debates, music and other stuff Grant would be interested in!

The chap from the Watershed who introduced the showing of The Seventh Seal, was a card carrying secularist/materialist, who had empathy with psychanalysis and cinema but thought it a conceit to talk about spirituality and cinema. Unfortunately after watching the movie and having a bit of a debate about Ingmar Bergman, he asked if the three folks from the Bible Society had anything they’d like to say about the movie and its choice in the programme. There was an embarrasing silence and I was saddened that they seemed unable to talk about cinema as a medium for conveying truth, or even erstwhile opinions about the nature of reality!

However, we are not alone in this myopia, as the Presenter obviously hadn’t read up on Christianity and Spirituality and dismissed it as a conceit. I think sometimes we do more reading around a subject than the so-called Enlightened Secularists! However, in his cinematic judgement, he thought Bresson’s [i:cce457a6d7]Au Hasard, Balthazar[/i:cce457a6d7] was a much better film. I may be seeing this for the first time on Sunday, so if anyone knows anything about Bresson or ‘his most lyrical’ film I’d appreciate some comments. Is he much better at describing reality than Bergman?

As for the Kingdom of Heaven, I’d say it’s a fantastic film, quite different in emotional empathy with Maximus, but all the same, it says a lot about why we are here and who we are. The cinematography was spectacular and some of the pithy sayings were quite stirring! So has anyone seen this film? What do you think of it?

Geoff
PS Oh, I should say that the report of having more symapthetic renditions of Moslem characters, was a little far-fetched, but if anyone knows historically about this period it would be interesting to hear if the depictions of the King of Jerusalem and his sister were actually at all accurate.

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vanlee
May 12 2005
07:28 pm

Geoff, I have not yet seen Kingdom of Heaven which does intrigue me. Then I will come back & discuss it.

Quote below from your comment above…
he asked if the three folks from the Bible Society had anything they’d like to say about the movie and its choice in the programme.[b:af24474e3f] There was an embarrasing silence and I was saddened that they seemed unable to talk about cinema as a medium for conveying truth, or even erstwhile opinions about the nature of reality![/b:af24474e3f]

Maybe they still don’t go to films??? Or have just started? In this country, many groups (including my dad’s parents) simply did not go to films at all. This is minimal now, esp. since TV bypasses the theater anyway.
…..
True Story…My dad, forbidden to go to movies when a child, sneaked out one Sunday afternoon (he was age 12—-could go out himself) and watched a movie he still remembers… “Belle Star” a Western “In color” he said a few days ago, with the guilt of disobeying parents still in his voice.

However, noone really cared that day to reprimand him. A greater violation had taken place which dwarfed his small transgression. He went to sneak back into his home without being questioned, but his 5 siblings ran out to tell him—-Pearl Harbor had just been attacked.

Ironically, I think my grandparents were right—in one sense—-that some movies have great power to move people, thus they are potentially bad influences. But the flip side is…that power is ultimately from God and is only bad when it is corrupted.

There are wonderful & great movies out there…Hope that Kingdom of Heaven is one of them.

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geoff3
May 13 2005
05:06 am

I think this lot probably had seen a bit of cinema before, but I think it may be a lack of what we might call cultural literacy.

For me, I enjoyed the Seventh Seal. It seemed to me to say something about his yearnings for a happy family life, which in his opinion can take you through the hard times of life. I’d also say that it objectifies his memory of his father’s Lutheran faith. To some extent the ham actors of both the ‘sacred’ and ‘secular’ theatre makes a value judgement on the fallen world and Lutheran Clergy.

I’d also say that there is what today we’d call misogyny. As one knight says to an actor (paraphrased) ‘With wives you go through bad times and good. It is therefore best to kill them during the good times, so that you have happy memories.’!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As for my friend Ridely Scott. Well, by way of confession vanlee, Ridley is a local hero in my home town, Hartlepool, where he lived with his Mum for some 7 years and attended Hartlepool College of Art. So we are quite proud of ‘our’ Ridley!

One of the tag lines for the film is: ‘Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves.’ This seems to sum up the code of honour, or view of righteousness, throughout the film.

As for the lovely! (my daughter’s judgement!) Orlando Bloom, it is interesting that he seems to embody something of a humanistic spirit, which in the face of all that ‘religion’ appears a little out of place. (See his speech about who owns Jerusalem.)

I look forward to you sharing your comments about Kingdom of Heaven, which you should note is probably a mite bloodier than Gladiator. Beware, don’t eat nachos with salsa sauce during the performance!

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vanlee
May 13 2005
10:11 am

of the tag lines for the film is: ‘Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves.’ This seems to sum up the code of honour, or view of righteousness, throughout the film. [/b:46326b586c]

The quote from Geoff’s email above.

Now I am even more curious. Since I too have a teen daughter (who was able to handle the blood of Passion of Christ) I can probably entice her to view the film [b:46326b586c]Kingdom of Heaven[/b:46326b586c] because of Orlando.

Regarding the wonderful quote above…It is essentially a paraphrase of many Bible verses where the strong are commanded to help & protect the weak & defenseless. As one congressman said (when fighting for the life of a brain damaged woman who was recently slowly starved to death against her parents;’ wishes)
’’THE STRONG NEED THE WEAK."

I have read some on the Crusades, but hope to read more & truly understand as much as possible. Where did Christians go right? where did they go wrong? If this man has furthered a better, accurate look at the Crusades (as it sounds like he has—-at least to some extent) then goodfor him.

In this counttry, the Crusades are routinely held up by some as “Christians all wrong…”.