catapult magazine

catapult magazine




Jan 29 2003
02:51 pm

Jason brought this up in the Iraq thread. Can somebody tell me how one might, from reading the Bible, come to the conclusion that it is America’s duty to protect Israel?


Feb 14 2003
09:30 am

I don’t think I can. I would have to take a very roundabout approach, first justifying American democracy from a biblical standpoint (which would, in and of itself, be a task-and-a-half) and then showing how the United States is supporting God’s ordained way of governance in a region where human rights and freedoms are scarce (but Scripture doesn’t seem to support the idea of human rights either).

As for the idea that Israel has a more special place in God’s heart than the Palestinians or people of Iraq, I don’t know that I could find enough evidence for that, unless of course I stopped reading the Bible at Isaiah.


Mar 10 2003
05:09 am

Dan, I’m afraid I have inputed a statement about a topic that I really don’t know enought about to talk intelligently. There’s a good possibility what I said was totally wrong. I’ll have to do some research.

Thanks for calling me out. :) Let truth reign.


Mar 10 2003
06:43 am

OK, I had a blast researching this this morning. With help of JaBird?s Khouse web page and my NIV text notes, I got some great stuff.
God?s promise to Abraham (never repealed)
Gen 12:2-3 ?I will make you into a great nation? I will bless those who bless you and whoever curses you I will curse??

Romans 9-11 are very interesting. Rom 10:12-13 ?For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile-the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for ?everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.??

This and other verses talk about how there is no difference between Jew and Gentile in terms of availability of salvation. Does it also mean there is no difference between Jew and Gentile period now?
Paul is a minister to the Gentiles and he is writing to the Romans, but he is a Jew and understands Israel?s place in the covenant.

Romans 11:11-12 ?Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!?

This seems to imply that salvation to Gentiles is a means of restoring Israel to fullness in God. And the fullness of Israel will bring great riches to the world. Paul goes on to say that the Gentiles are ingrafted branches into the root of the church which is Israel. Out of the root came sin and also Jesus.

Romans 11:18 says ?? You do not support the root, but the root supports you.?

Romans 11:26 says ?And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: ?The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob??

Fittingly after these dense passages, Paul says ?Who has known the mind of the Lord??
Other scripture: Jeremiah 31:31-34

I would certainly welcome any help in interpreting these passages. One thing is clear to me, though: Israel is not optional.


Mar 10 2003
05:02 pm

Okay, I’m not big on proof-texting anyway, but aren’t all these passages talking about Israel as a people, not a physical place?


Mar 11 2003
04:03 pm

I think we have to be very careful with Scripture here…and also with Israel.
Old Testament, New Testament—the totality of the Scriptures.
Israel—the nation, the people, the country, the prophecies…..politics, vested interests in the Middle East…
I’m not sure I know whereforofwhat I am speaking so I will give it more thought and acknowledge that Israel is a complicated topic….


Mar 11 2003
05:59 pm

You have landed on a very sensitive topic withing Christendom…
What is the status of Israel today (in other words, are they still the chosen people of God or did they forfeit their “choseness” when they runed away from Christ?)

I think that it is sensitive because of what the possible underlying outcomes could be given one way or the other. If the nation and people of Israel have lost their place as the “chosen” nation of God (and by chosen, I don’t mean better, but those allocated by God to show the world, as priests per se, the greatness of God) then there would be great discrepancies in the prophetic statements of the Bible while at the same time satisfying our feelings that Israel lost their “birthright” or quite possibly sold it for a pot of religious soup.

The problem I have with that mentality, is that when God promises something, it stands for eternity, and is not held fettered to the choices of man. God claimed Israel as His own. He outlined their borders throughout the Torah (The first 5 books of the Old Testament) and established ther system of government and worship. They as a nation, as well as a people were claimed His. Regardless of their actions, He always chose to love them (whether or not with tough love or not). In the book of Revelation, you see a resurgence of Israel, and as they see the anti-christ declare himself God in the newly constructed temple, they are allowed to see that Christ was their Messiah and cry out to Him for deliverence as a nation, and as a people, and it is then that He comes out swinging….

Now, why has America chosen to protect Israel, and stand beside her? I imagine, that the American people have a soft spot in their hearts due to the scriptures and its inclusion of Israel. Many protestant evangelicals have been raised believing that Israels fate has not yet been completed. They feel it our spiritual obligation to stand with her, so as not quite possibly to stand against God.

It’s late, and I have Piglet’s Big Movie racing around in my head (for crying out loud will Carly Simon ever just stop?) so this has not been as focused as I would have liked it. Sorry, maybe some of the more learned crowd can strengthen or destroy my hypothesis.


Apr 15 2003
08:45 am

Biblically there doesn’t seem to be a reason to protect Israel specifically unless we want to get into a dispensationalism vs. covenant theology discussion.

I think in principle though it is Christian to protect those people who are in desperate need of our protection. Israel is a country surrounded by people who would be happier if it and it’s Jewish citizens were driven into the sea. Which is a stated goal of the PLO.

Anti-semitism is reemerging in Germany and Eastern Europe, and the rest of Europe is once again turning a blind eye to it. The media has made Palestine appear to be an oppressed minority, when anyone with any knowledge of history should realize who the oppressed minority historically and globally really is.